I know this post may cause a stir and that is not why I am posting. I respect others beliefs and would always like to be in conversation about our differences but would not try to force a change in ones beliefs. one must be true to their own beliefs, no matter how different from my own. Please respect the conversation I am about to post. This comes from a question posted by someone I know on facebook, and my subsequent response to them.
Facebook Post:
I have two questions for those more devout than I, and don’t take this as an attack on your beliefs or that I am questioning anyone’s intelligence as I am only seeking to gain some insight in regards to gay marriage.
- In the bible, unless I am mistaken, it says something along the lines of being bad if man should lie with man. Now is that only pertaining to two men, or does it pertain to two women as well? If it pertains to just two men, where in the bible is it against lesbianism? If it does pertain to women though, then man can be defined as both men and women and that if a man and woman should lie together, it would be bad wouldn’t it?
- If marriage has to be recognized by both state and God, why would the state recognizing it be a bad thing seeing as God would not condone it anyway? While they may be legally married under the state and enjoy all the benefits of married life and the recognition from their peers, it just wouldn’t be under God as is a man and woman married are, and therefore has no effect on the religions beliefs. The word marriage would just have two definitions, one for non religious peoples and another for those that follow the Bible.
Second Facebook post from same person:
Okay so I found leviticus’ thing about if man should lie with mankind as he does a woman. But would the term mankind from then on only be talking about men as it does here? Are women not considered a part of mankind?
Here is my response. Again, you may not agree with what I believe and that is okay, but please respect that. Anyone who gets ugly in their response comments, will have the comments deleted. I do not want to use this blog to spew hate by myself or anyone else.
There is much to be interpreted into the Bible. A verse or two is never good to look at. This is why Luther said that scripture must be interpreted through other scripture. The Roman Catholic Church would agree on this too but would add tradition. We would differ on the importance of tradition.
I am not sure what version you looked at for Leviticus but English translations are problematic because the English language does not fully lend itself to proper translation based upon the nuances of the Greek and Hebrew that the scriptures were written in. Even with that said, both languages are versions that are considered dead and have not been written or spoken in hundreds of years and thus even the true nuances/meaning can be lost in any translation. Translation is nothing that can be done word for word and when a translation is done it really amounts to an interpretation and that interpretation is based upon many things, such as;
Context of the interpreter, context of who the translation/interpretation audience is to be, historical knowledge, historical context, possible bias to lead a reader in a particular direction, and on and on.
Now, with all that being said:
Man to lay with a Man because the Bible was put together with a bias towards the male gender by the mostly male translators/interpreters would account for the interpretation. It is also important to know that in Biblical times, there was not the same understanding of how babies were conceived. Yes, the basics were known, but not the same scientific knowledge of today. Often it was thought that women were the sole reason for not conceiving, they were the the determination of the sex of the baby. As we know now, neither are true. The man was the carrier of the “seed” and for a man to lay with a man or even to “spill” the seed upon the ground did not help reproduction. One of the main concerns in biblical times was reproduction and making more humans. The mortality rate was significantly high. This mortality rate continued for America into the late 1800 to early 1900’s. Often parents did not name their child until after a time to be considered to be safe that the lived. The mortality rate is very high in some countries even today.
The definition of marriage is at the core of many fights. Because people will argue that a marriage is between and man and woman only and use the Bible, a non secular book, to back them up. The question really comes down to why are those who believe that a marriage, based upon religious beliefs, trying to force their beliefs upon the secular world? It is also about bias in translations too.
The history of religion, is that one group has more often than not forced particular religious beliefs upon others. Now through the separation of church and state in the U.S., which most people misinterpret, the state is not to mandate a particular religion upon the people and the people are to exercise their freedom to choose or not.
So, through misinterpretation, misuse and force, the state instead attempts to force those who have religious beliefs to give them up instead for secular beliefs. I was speaking with someone that was to do community service for the courts. They were advised they could do this for many institutions, as long as they did not have any religious affiliation. When questioned about the caveat, the response was “because of the separation between church and state.” Again, a misuse of the separation, when doing the community service why not be able to work in a place that supports your beliefs and why should you be forced to work in a place that has no religious beliefs, may be against your religious beliefs, why should they benefit from the service and not a religious organization of your choice.
With regards to homosexuality, because that is the main crux of the issue with same sex marriage, the Bible is often misused to justify what someone feels comfortable with vs, what it might actually say. As a Christian, I am not bound by the Old Testament, therefore anything that is pointed out there I am freed from through Jesus Christ because although He did not abolish the law, he fulfilled the law and freed me from the death of the law in His death and resurrection.
Many like to site 1 Corinthians 6:9 as justification against homosexuality. However, I Corinthian 6:9— malakov” (Malakois) means– of a boy kept for homosexual relations with a man or of a male prostitute. Not homosexuality!!!!! This is a purity issue of either prostitution or pedophilia not homosexuality! Would it not be wrong if it were a female child or a woman prostitute?
Back to interpretation:
The word Homosexual or homosexuality is a 19th century created word and so to use that as a word in a translation is faulty because it does not have a 1st century equivalent.
But lets look at Genesis 19 about the town of Sodom:
Remember the story in Genesis 19 about the town of Sodom and of being a “sodomite”? The men of the town wanted to gang rape the angels that came to visit Lot and his family. Gang rape and lust are the issues here—gang rape and lust is wrong, heterosexually and homosexually. They truly lacked hospitality and were brutal. Besides, angels are not sexual beings, they are not male or female, they are angels. And so to equate angels and homosexual behavior is ludicrous and bad exegesis.
I don’t know how many made it this far, but there is lots and lots to be said on both sides of the issue. I respect those that believe differently than I do. We can agree on many issues and some we have to agree to be civil about and agree to disagree but still be in conversation. Society today seems to have gone to the way of “only my way or the highway” and has become very brutal about the tactics of “persuasion”.
In Christ we are saved. Christ did not abolish the law but fulfilled the law and through the Grace of God in the faith of Christ we, human beings are both sinner and saint and can partake of the kingdom of heaven today.
Thanks Doug! Speaking of Roman Catholic – one of the best voices from that tradition these days on this topic is James Alison – not lecturing internationally born in England – now of Brazil: http://www.jamesalison.co.uk/
David, thankyou for the link. I see there is much out there to look at. I will be doing some reading later….after Holy Week that is.
By the way Doug, the video is not just about abuse. He considers himself healed of homosexuality and he makes that very clear.
Yes, I hear that too. But can one be “healed” of how they were created? Should one be “healed” of how they were created? Is this something that can and should be “healed”? All sorts of theological questions abound in this, from the far left to the far right and everywhere inbetween.
This time I am really in agreement with You. Recently I read about the eunuch who had been baptized by Philip, who had hitched a ride from the eunuch in his chariot. The eunuch was in the service of Queen Candace of Ethiopia. It is this same eunuch who took the church to Ethiopia and caused Christianity to shine its’ light in that country.
Scripture says that this person was a eunuch from his mother’s womb. In today’s parlance it means the man was gay. He was not a castrated eunuch. Because Philip was a Jewish Christian he would still have obeyed Mosaic Law as well as the Words of Christ. Therefore, as a Jew he would have been forbidden to baptize someone who was castrated. It was only later that the early Church put aside the religious Jewishness of converts.
Paul argued against circumcision and making Greeks into Jews before they could be Christians. So with freedom from the Mosaic Law all peoples could be freely baptized, including castrated eunuchs, or anybody. But not so in the case of the servant of Queen Candace. He was not a castrated eunuch, he was at it says a eunuch from his mother’s womb. In other words a gay person. I have repeated this for emphasis. Two thousand years ago the spoken languages didn’t have such modern jargon, as we have today in the English language. So, in the time of Christ there were many who were attracted to their own sex, the same sex, homo sex. I don’t ever remember reading where Christ condemned eunuchs, or harlots, or tax collectors, or anybody.
The Church celebrates several male/male couples who are martyrs and saints. It is only today with unfortunate influence of fundamentalism into the Orthodox, Catholic and mainstream Protestant Churches that our kind stand condemned by ignorance and un-Christian judgment.
I am very glad we can find places to agree and those areas we do not agree, conversation is always welcome. Peace to you this Holy Week and beyond.
Hi Doug. I hear you in regard to a “religious” belief being forced upon a group of people who have no faith or who have a different belief system. You of all people know that God is our Creator, our First Love, our Bridegroom…. He is AWESOME! Did Jesus go around trying to force Him self on people? No. But He didn’t lie. And He did correct and rebuke at times.
We need to be sure to keep the issue of pressures and abuse and “homophobia” etc. out of the discussion of what is and what is not in God’s Word…. specifically regarding the issue of whether homosexuality is okay with God.
Abuse etc. is not okay under any circumstance for any one.
Regarding our Creators plan for man and woman…. we just need to look a the the lamp unto our feet and the light unto our path.
I am finding that much of the confusion/frustration/timidity on the part of some Christians on the homosexual issue (and yes I know some are not timid at all and some are downright hateful but we’ve established that abuse is not okay period) stems from a lack of truth and a need to bring some things into the light. God heals. He can heal anything. I’ve had people yell at me because we believe that in Christ our son diagnosed Down Syndrome is healed. We are going by God’s Word. Jesus bore all of our sins and our infirmities. Our son was already “miraculously” healed overnight of advanced Legg Calve Perthes Disease that had sent him into a wheelchair. :0) And yes I said overnight.
Our older son, Beau, was healed instantly at age 5 1/2 of severe asthma. when he was 2 1/2 and stopped breathing from asthma symptoms I was allowed to see an angel (a big hunkin dude) who spoke to me. Again… our God is AWESOME.
I asked God when I was much younger, why homosexuality wasn’t okay. I didn’t like the hatred I was seeing in my parents toward gays, blacks and Jews. I actually got a quick answer. Suddenly I knew that God could have created only one sex, He could have created three or He could have chosen to create four hundred and ninety seven. He is God. He is the Creator. He gets to choose the plan. He even could have chosen for the planet to be inhabited by homosexuals or a fifty percent ratio of gays. But He is God and he decides the plan.
That being settled what does He say? And do we care…. only those who honor the Bible will truly care…. and when I say honor I mean they believe God when He says His Word is eternal – Mark 13:31. I strongly believe God has made it clear we aren’t supposed to make up our own gospel…. our own plan. We shouldn’t pick and choose what we’ll accept or believe and what we won’t. It just becomes a manmade religion then. So here’s a site that has some good verses and thoughts. I particularly like the reference to Romans 1:18-32. http://www.witnessfortheworld.org/homont.html
Back to the statement I made about a lack of truth and things needing to be brought into the light…. God heals homosexuality. If a believer will accept that God has the right to decide the plan and that the Bible is clear that heterosexuality within marriage is God’s plan, then what needs to be brought out more is that our loving Lord is healing many people of the homosexual lifestyle. But that has been severely suppressed. I repeat…. that has been SEVERELY suppressed. So it’s very understandable that many Christians (especially if they don’t know a lot of the Bible), might feel at a loss when the mainstream media portrays homosexuality as a birth condition and it’s not reported that God loves them and can and will heal them. So often, well-meaning people feel they have nowhere to turn, opinion-wise, except to join in on the gay parade so to speak, to defend and protect these poor people who have no way out of this condition.
A Christian leader, such as your self, should be the one to point out to them that God IS loving, He has designed a wonderful plan, and He heals homosexuals, if they’re willing. Radical I know. But I believe it’s true.
And… we can talk on and on about different belief systems and the right to think this way and that… and God gave people freedom of choice… while we’re here. But nothing I say or that you say or that anyone else says will CHANGE God or His Word. And I am so glad I know that. He’s not only loving and patient and just and powerful, He’s also amazingly dependable and faithful. :0)
Blessings to you and yours, In Christ, Ali <
All I can say is this, I can only believe the truth that I believe. What the truth is has been revealed but many have different ideas of what the truth says and only God truly knows the truth, unaltered in God’s truth not by humans. So you say you know the truth but so say I and millions of others, with each truth not being exactly the same. Hopefully we will understand the truth in heaven when that comes.
I thank God for the love that is shown to all of us sinners. We all sin both unintentionally and intentionally. Anyone that says they do not sin intentionally, I fear may be living in denial and sin. Even Paul said he knew what he should not do but still did it. We cannot help ourselves and need Christ alone.
I left the video link you posted. Although after viewing it, it is about abuse, which is what I spoke about in my post as being wrong. Abuse of a male on a male, woman on woman, adult on child, no matter what sexual orientation is wrong….PERIOD. What the video really has to do in relation to my post is at most on the very outer edges of making a connection in my opinion, but this is only my opinion. Again, I am not trying to sway you to believe what I believe but felt called to share what I believed for anyone that cared to read it.
I do however take exception to someone telling me that I “A Christian leader, such as your self, should be the one to point out to them that God IS loving, He has designed a wonderful plan, and He heals homosexuals, if they’re willing. Radical I know. But I believe it’s true.” That is a belief you hold and I do not. Homosexuals do not need healing and God therefore would not “heal” what does not need healing. However, again your belief is that homosexuality is wrong, and I respect your belief but do not agree. I pointed out in my post just a few faulty reasonings in my opinion that people use from the Bible to justify their beliefs against homosexuality. I agree God is loving and has designed a wonderful plan. So much though still remains hidden. See Deuteronomy 29:29
Really, the majority of the post was dealing with interpretation, in the light of the question of same sex marriage and why the secular world and the religious world cannot deal with one another allowing or not allowing same sex marriage vs. having tolerance in either direction. All of it steeped in misunderstanding, strong convictions of “my way or the highway”, violence of putting others down or conversion to another’s way of thinking.
I am thankful to live in a country where we can express our opinions as given to us through our creator, whoever one believes that is. I am also thankful that through the new covenant in Christ, we are given freedom from the punishment of the law, through our death in Christ and that God expresses nothing but love and grace to each of us, the sinners, intentional and unintentional sinners.
There may be many surprises for many people in heaven. Looking forward to the day to being surprised!
Curious to know if you even believe there is a real Hell. Also curious to know who you think will be going there…. if you believe there is one.
Not that either of those questions are even remotely related to the topic at hand and seem to be those type of leading questions that are designed to be a trapping, leading towards “your way or the highway” approach in assessing ones’s beliefs compared to another.
Yes, I believe there is a Hell. No, I do not believe I will be going there. Before you ask, I do not believe in universal salvation. That being said, we all have the right to refuse what God has offered us in God’s Son. That too being said,
For we maintain that a man is justified (accepted) by faith apart from observing the law. Romans 3:28 God accepts us not because of the stuff we do or don’t do, God accepts us by faith only. Faith is trusting Jesus as Lord.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life.
17 “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. John 3:16-18
therefore God also highly exalted him
and gave him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee should bend,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-12
All are sinners!!! We can’t point fingers.
4 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God, 6 who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of letter but of spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:4-6
It is through faith we are saved not by works and not of our own doing but in the faith of Christ through the Spirit that gives life.
Not a trap Doug… and no, I wasn’t trying to say you’re headed for Hell. I just wanted to know if you believed it existed and who you thought was going there. In the past, you told us you believe people are not saved by actually saying the “sinner’s prayer” as in, actually confessing sin and accepting Jesus Christ. Please correct me if I got that wrong. You also said something like people are saved as long as they don’t “reject” Jesus…. as if by simply just “being” they are saved as long as they don’t actively reject Him. I’d really like to understand your belief system. What is sin to you? Adultery? Fornication? Do you believe in telling people to not commit those acts? I’m assuming stealing, lying, hatred, coveting and taking God’s name in vain might be on the list??
You are a feisty person at times. 😉 But so am I and many others. God is certainly creative in His creation.
To me, a lot of my relationship with the Lord my Creator involves submission. It’s not that God is a tyrant trying to squish me, but I am to die, that I might live in Christ. I am a citizen of Heaven now, not of Earth, I am only a visitor here and an ambassador for Jesus Christ. This holds true even if people despise, me as long as I truly love the Lord, love people and my self and speak the truth of God in love. Jesus had haters. He was accused of being of the devil. So I am learning to not get “thrown off” if some folks aren’t totally thrilled with me. I’m dead anyway. At least I should be (in process).
Regarding submission, from what I can tell, relationship with the Lord is one of great grace, yet He is always calling us to let go. Let go of our fears, our failings and weaknesses, our pride and even often many of our former views. Our minds, those of us seeking the Jesus of the Bible, are truly being renewed. I love how we don’t have to stay dependent on the world’s ways. Most people truly are raised to look upon the world around them as “it”. And it is not IT. This world is so incredibly temporary. That’s another thing I love about God and His Word. It’s eternal.
Another cool thing about following God that is fun is the supernatural. The supernatural should actually be very natural for believers. God is real. Satan/Lucifer is real. Angels and demons are real. And God is powerful beyond our comprehension. To be able to simply speak… and have the world come into being. To have mountains obey you. To invent flamingos and whales and butterflies and colors and people… we are so complex…. and there’s just such a vast array of creation. How awesome our God is. He not only is our Creator but He’s the Author and Finisher of our faith. In the Word it says Jesus doesn’t pray for the world, but He prays for those whom the Father has given Him. The whole thing is kind of mind boggling at times. But when I draw near to the Lord, He draws near to me and I relax and submit. I don’t understand all now, but later the veil will lift. For now we have the Holy Spirit and God’s Word. And in the supernatural dept. we have giftings like those in I Corinthians 12. I’ve seen them in action so many times. I’m starting to get used to it. I love it! And yes, there are false displays. Satan seems to like to try and deceive. But God says to test things and that is good to do. I’ve seen your uncle Rudy display the gift of wisdom…. decades ago. I felt as though God was telling me to not discount him or get on a high horse… but to realize that God will use whomever He chooses however He chooses. The gift of wisdom is different than typical wisdom. And watching it in action was awesome. I regularly see the gift of word of knowledge at work. A close friend has it. Get around her and God may choose to tell her all kinds of things about you…. and give you words of direction, correction and/or encouragement. God has her in training… as she grows in Him and also as she learns to handle the gift, by submission actually. Her attitudes, her thoughts, her agendas must die, so that His may flow freely. We are spirit beings, who have a soul and we live in a body. Yes? :0)
With me, God has used me with discerning of spirits. But I don’t think I’m limited to that. I think God will use any of His sons and daughters in any gifting He chooses. I think God loves it when we are willing vessels. Discerning of spirits is quite different than wisdom and word. It was rather a shock to actually FEEL the presence of evil, even see demons. I’m in training too…. when God chooses to show me something I’m learning to ask Him what He wants done, and to not let my feelings or observations lead. Again…. submission. But what joyous submission it is…. to be one with the Lord!
And I really love how God just blows people out of the water…. with these giftings and with dreams and visions etc.. Sometimes He floods them with love, sometimes it is correction but it’s still loving as it is helpful. The discernment is a blessing too… as it exposes attacks on the body of Christ. All should be tested according to the Word. People can gab gab gab all they want about what they think, how they see it, what they want to accomplish etc….. but it really just gets blown away when God’s power and glory are displayed. I’ve seen it. People can’t stand against God. Thankfully He loves us and keeps giving us chances to turn to Him until that time is done.
So did I go off the topic at hand again? :0) Be blessed. Love In Christ, Ali <